P N 02:53
yeah. Well. Glenda Wren, Gordon, yes. Thanks so much for joining us on The we got your six podcasts.

Glenda 02:58
Great to be here. Class of 1999 Yeah, my baby, yeah,

P N 03:04
And we're also, we're doing this in person. So, we, we, we are here live. And, yeah, we were able to do another one in person. This is actually a nice little flow for those that are in the DC area where I'm located. Yeah, you know, be nice to do that. Share some energy. But yeah, thanks again for joining us. You've seen the show. You're on the board of the 99 anymore?

Glenda 03:26
No, yeah, I started out on the board, and then it was actually Jeanette and I, we were both on the board, engaging the family members and kind of stewarding those relationships. And it was in part that was a difficult part of the job of hosting those relationships and kind of cultivating them. But then I think I grew kind of impatient with like, this is important work, but I don't know if this is my best work, because I want for people to not die, you know, I want people to be here tomorrow. So, I started to pivot away from like, okay, so what can we do to focus on the well-being of the people that are here? Because there's other people that can steward those families. I mean, they do need care and concern. But my highest work, I think that's kind of so I kind of pulled away from the board so that I could put more energy into what is now this, you know, so, and I was like, I can't lead it, not the right person to be in the front, but I can kind of cultivate it and put my energy behind that. So, and I feel comfortable here. I feel like this is a this is a good place for me to serve.

P N 04:42
Yeah, well let's talk about that. I mean, let's talk about what you're doing right now. And then I do want to go back to 99 because I have questions. But let's talk about the way that you're helping Mindoula is one of those avenues. But there's also several more we're recording today in the office of NAMI. Yes. So. Let's talk about Nami and what that is, and what does it mean for someone who's out there listening that may think that something's going on, they know they're having thoughts that maybe they wish they didn't have, or maybe they just outright know they're suffering, but there, you know, they're hoping that they can figure it out on their own.

Glenda 05:16
Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much everybody. I mean, so I'm a psychiatrist by training. I went to medical school, trained in psychiatry, also trained in health policy research, but back when I was a resident at the University of Pennsylvania, I had observations around how long it took people to get care. We were in West Philadelphia, in a resident clinic, and we had people that were, like high end executives that came through that clinic, as well as people that were on Medicaid, really impoverished and but what they shared especially people that were impacted by trauma. Their traumas were from like, 20 years in the past, and even the ones that could manage, like a functional life. They got married, they had kids, they were still stuck in time. And I started to then become really curious around, why did it take so long? And, you know, and they would say, Oh, you're such a great doctor. I'm like, Okay, I'm a good doctor, but I'm not that great. And what happened to you before you got here? Why did it take so long? And then I started to study, like the health beliefs model, which is the way that researchers think about how people seek help for health conditions. And I did a whole project studying that, as applied to mental health symptoms, it did not match it just that's not how people seek help. They were stuck in the identification stage. So, it's like this, if you fell when you broke your arm, you'd be like, Oh my gosh, this hurts so bad. I should probably see a doctor about it. But if you have a severe depression, you're gonna be like, maybe I just need to pray. Or, you know, maybe I'm just in a funk, or maybe I eat some bad food. Like, you have all these other theories around how your mind works, whereas people don't have a theory about a bone. They're like, my bone is broke. I'm gonna go put a cast on it. So that's really how I then it really changed how I thought about was the function of a psychiatrist. I can only help a certain number of people who managed to come to see a doctor, but then I could also give a talk in the community and help, like 100 people to think about as they're thinking through this question that you just posed. Oh, maybe I should go talk to somebody about that. So, part of the mystery around the black box and mental health, lack of trust, because of the history of the whole mental health care system, all of that was like, in the way, and I was like, There's got to be a better way, like, there's got to be a better way to help people make decisions, to overcome the stigma that people have. But even if you take away the stigma all the like practical barriers, like access and can I afford the care, you still got to get over the internal hurdle of, like, what is my problem? Like, what's causing my problem? And then is there help for me? So, in the example of trauma, people like, Oh, I know what's wrong with me. XYZ happened to me, and I feel terrible, because that was a terrible thing. End of story. No more curiosity. So, they suffer with re-experiencing nightmares, flashbacks, coping with alcohol for decades, until maybe they watch a show or talk to somebody and they're like, oh, wait, that can be treated like I don't have to live like this. I don't suffer like that. So, I tend to split my efforts between, like, the clinical work and the healthier leadership stuff. But I'm so passionate about communities and just talking to regular people because I feel like people get help from for their mental health symptoms because someone that loves them helps them most of the time, most of the time, yeah, we don't know what we don't know exactly.

P N 08:44
And it could feel like sometimes we're the only one that's going through this, or a lot of it, I think it so there's a part of it that's worthiness. Part of it is not wanting to be a burden on other people. So, feeling like, I'll figure this out. I don't want to, you know, you've got a lot going on. I'm supposed to be acclimating. I mean, you know, in a different for me, yeah, this, I'm just kind of speaking from my own point of view. What it felt like was, I mean, I got, you know, I was in a rough spot where I would, I would almost, I would say out loud, and I guess it was my foxhole prayers, right? Sometimes it'd be like, if you get me out of this one, I promise I won't do it anymore, and other times it was like, Look, you know what? Other people need your help. Don't worry about me. I'll figure this out. And even if I'm not here, they're better off anyway.

Glenda 09:30
That’s the other part of it, because if you broke your arm, like you couldn't function. But people can have a broken heart, a broken mind, and still kind of get by in the world. I mean, if you if you made a physical representation, if emotional distress was physically manifest, everyone would get help. But it's not, it's like inside, it's in your head, you can go to the job, you can we're so good at hiding behind the mask. We're so good at just drifting through space and time, totally. Be disengaged, totally mentally dysfunctional, and I would never know it if you didn't tell me.

P N 10:05
Yeah, and I got really good at, you know, hiding it. My job was to be the social chameleon, yeah, and put on a happy face when I saw you. There's a lot of people, you know, when I when I got sober, and I really started opening up about what was going on with me, and talking about, you know, my attempts and the ideations and all the stuff. They were like, We had no idea. We would have never thought that about you. I was like, Yeah, that was on purpose. That's right, I was doing that on purpose. So, what are some of the things that you see from your patients, or this, you know, in the community, that you are some of the things that when we're when we're doing, when we have those behaviors, that's probably a sign that maybe we should talk to people, and that we're probably not the only one that has that going on.

Glenda 10:46
Yeah, it's a good question. I think the hiding, you know, most people are aware that they're hiding. I actually can relate to this. I remember feeling really bad and for my spouse kind of being like, hope he doesn't notice like, I hope that I get like, like, don't scratch the surface too deep, because I'm like, barely hanging on, and I feel like, if someone looks me in my eyes and locks eyes, I'm like, How are you really like? I was like, I might just fall apart, you know. So, when you notice that you're feeling like that, like that you're putting on the mask and you're conscious of that that should be a red flag. Like, okay, what do you have to hide from? For me, it was just fear of, like, I'm trying to hold it together. I'm barely holding it together, and I have to hold it together because, like, the whole world depends upon me holding it together.

P N 11:37
What were some of the things you were hiding?

Glenda 11:40
Um just feeling overwhelmed. And I call it like the difference between a color world and a black and white world. Like the world was black and white, and I knew it was in color, but for me, it was black and white, and I was like, you know, again, I mean, I do this for my job, like I'm helping. I would go to work and help somebody else do the same thing that I knew myself. I'm like, I'm not at my best, but I had a story that I told myself around, why? Oh, your mom, oh, you have this going on. Oh, you have stress. And the story was enough. And I'm like, it'll probably get better, you know? And time went on and time went on, and then at some point I was like, All right, a lot of time has gone on. This really has not gotten better. So, something has to change. Yeah,

P N 12:31
it's all of all, or nothing, 10k right, yeah, it is what it is, yeah. Or you feel stuck,

Glenda 12:37
yeah, you know, what am I to do? Take time off work. I have to work to make money so my family can eat. You know, I had a conversation. It's actually with my primary care doctor. The thing that kind of shook me up, I was talking to her. It was after my mom had her stroke. Like, these are regular things that happen to people. Like, I was clearly distressed about it, like I was, but I was, you know, still doing my job and everything. I was, like, talking to her about it, and she was just like, I said, Yeah, I don't know. I think I might need to, like, pick some time off of work. You know, it's just hard traveling back and forth. I think I should take, like, intermittent FMLA so I can travel more easily to support my mom. She's like, Okay, I'm gonna put you for three months. I was like, wait what? I don't mean that kind of time off, like, that sounds pretty extreme, and she's looking to be like, are we talking about the same as, Are you hearing what you're saying? And it was something about her affect that actually shook me enough to say, oh, again, the same qualities that allow us to be strong, to deal with pain, to ignore pain, they the shadow side. Is it like you're literally drowning, taking in water. And you're like, I think is enough oxygen in here for me to breathe, like people that aren't in your situation. Like, okay, so there's a life raft here. Like, you know you're drowning, you need to get out of the water.

P N 14:00
Yeah. What's funny is we don't often hide it as well as we think we are. We're hiding it from ourselves more often. And I think I was, I was the master at convincing myself of anything. I was my best salesperson and my best client, because I would think it up long enough, and then the reticular activating system would, you know, yeah, but just my mind, I would just find example after example after example of why I was right. And if I couldn't find it, I would think one up right. I would spend a lot of time thinking up what I thought You thought, and adjusting my behavior based on what I thought You thought, but I never asked you what you thought. Wow. And then you when you're upset at me, I'm like, Well, look at all what I'm doing for you. Yeah, interesting. I'm doing this for you. Like, I like, I'm suffering with this, and I'm not even bringing it up. I'm not telling you anything about it, and so, and it's but I didn't realize that I was doing that to myself. I thought I was doing that for other people.

Glenda 14:51
Yeah, there's a lot of stories we tell ourselves that cause suffering. Cause we cause our own suffering, and we can cause suffering. And I. People, I don't know some of this, I feel like there's a lot of different ways to come to a place of insight and awareness and healing. You know, my job is just one way of getting there, putting people have found healing from going on a good, long vacation, you know, reading a really good book, like, you know, there's a lot of different ways that people can get to healing. I think the hardest part though, is, do you let someone in enough to speak to you like, you know? Because looking back after I made all these life changes, well, it actually got me pretty pissed off. So, I, you know, all these things happen. I took three months off of work, and then I came back, and everyone was like, You look so great, and I was really worried about you. I'm like, were you? Were you worried about me? Because he didn't say, like, a damn thing. He didn't say one thing well, because you always seem like you had it going on, and you could handle a lot, and you're so strong. I'm thinking, like, yeah, let this not be me. Next time I see somebody like falling off the edge of a cliff, let me go ahead and take that risk to say something, um, you know. And even I think, you know, my own partner, who's looking at me every day, he's also not sure, because he's like, this person is really strong. Maybe she's okay, you know, how, much can she really handle? And I was in, I was getting, I was in therapy, so it wasn't like I wasn't getting any type of care, but if it's just that anchor point of, what is the threshold, you know? And so, I think, you know, we're here talking in the context of people that are struggling with, like, should I live, or should I die? Like, that's a very clear objective point of concern. But many you there's you can come really close to that edge and you're still terminal, right? So, it doesn't have to come to that point of, does it even matter if I'm here? I mean, there were times where I'm just like, Does every you know, does anybody notice that I'm not functioning? You know, that's almost the same feeling, right, just a matter of degrees.

P N 17:06
Yeah, I think we scare people more than we realize too. It's, it's really easy for us to think because they're not saying anything that we must be doing well at we're hiding it well, because we got, we won today, right? No one figured it out, right? And that feeling of like, you know, you could figure me out. They're watching me. They can figure me out in every second, the lashing out, like, why are you always paying attention everything I'm doing? Yeah, you know, mind your own business, but, um, it's because you're right on the edge of, like, I might get found out. Yeah, not realizing we've been found that long time ago. Yeah, more people knew about my drinking and my behavior and the stuff I was doing long before I said anything. They were just terrified. They didn't know what to do.

Glenda 17:51
They didn't want to be cut out. I mean, this is I've been on both sides of this, right? So, I know what it's like to watch someone sort of self-destruct and feel like I'm not sure if I have permission to verbalize this and I want to be in relationship with them. So, is it safe for me to express a concern, or will they cut me off and then I won't have any opportunity to help them? You know that that, I think, is where a lot of love loved one’s struggle to like, know what to say, or they're worried about how it might come across, so they just say nothing, which can sometimes be worse, right? You know? Well, let’s.

P N 18:30
talk about your own personal experience, class of 99 Yeah. What you know? I always like to ask, what? Why the army? Why the army and not a different branch, and why the military to begin with?

Glenda 18:43
well, that's a really funny story, and I think a lot of people in my class know the story. So, I am the youngest graduate of my class, in part because I skipped a year of high school. I was the seven out of eight children and, but I was the one that was, like, super serious about school, so I was kind of irritated by the fact that by the time I was ready for college, thinking I'm like, There's no college fun remaining for me to go to, like Penn. I wanted to go to Penn. I did a summer program when I was 15, so I started realizing, okay, I'm not going to be able to go to like, an Ivy League school. I got to figure out how to get someone to pay for me to go to good school. And I hated high school, like I thought it was a colossal waste of time. Very impatient personality type. So, another one of my classmates had figured out how to skip a year to go to trade school, and I saw how she did. I was like, wait, I can do the same thing, like I can get credit for this other stuff, take this AP exam, and be dealt with this place. And so, I figured that out before I figured out, like, what my next step was. So, then I was like, Oh, wait, Junior High School is when you're supposed to figure out for college, and that's done. So, I was slipping through a college book trying to, like, look up colleges. And there was an ad for West Point. There was these two, like, strap. Family fit, you know, guys out in the field and their camo clothes on. And it was like, basically an end. It was, it was like, maybe a quarter page of the magazine. It was like, you know, this many Rhodes Scholars, this many Marshall scholars, and how much does this exceptional education cost? It's free. And I was like, it's free. Hold up. Let me call this numbers. I call the phone number. It was like to the recruitment office. I gave them some information. I now know that it was probably the regional minority recruiter, like, they have a whole system. But back then, I was just like, I'm the bomb, because they sent a fine black man in uniform to my house, like the next day. And I was like, Well, this sounds like a really great deal. I took it like hook, line and sinker, no questions asked. I just followed the path of what they said to do, to get an appointment and do the interviews. And I don't have any okay, my dad was in ROTC, but it's not like this was part of family conversation. Like everyone was like, how are you going into the military. Like, aren't you a girly girl that was trying to be like in musicals and stuff like, this is like the army, you know? But I heard free, I heard great education. I was a total patriot, so I'm just like, America. This is awesome. So, yeah, I mean, in hindsight, I probably should have done a little bit more research, but it really worked out, and I was very happy there.

P N 21:25
What’s one thing I guess we'll never really know, yeah, but what's one thing that you think you learned at West Point, or you gained from the army that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to get? I have a long list.

Glenda 21:37
Um, so I do think my personality was suited to the structure. A lot of people kind of react negatively to the structure and rules. I actually feel calmer when there's a structure or a system. Like, I love the fact that there were uniforms. I don't have to think about what I'm wearing. Great. You know, you're telling me how to fold my socks, how to wash my clothes, how to do everything. Like, awesome. That actually made me feel calm and safe and protected. I think one of the things I learned was the power of a system and a structure to scale. It was kind of nothing. I wasn't like consciously aware, but this is what I learned from this. But after I transitioned from the Military to Medicine, I was like, Oh, this is a dysfunctional system. Like, you know, like, Yeah, this is completely dysfunctional. And if you were in the military, you'd be able to say, this is the right way to go, and you could replicate and scale to this day. That's one of the best lessons learned. Like, still thinking about how to create a system or structure so that it can scale a positive outcome, so that it can create the safety of a boundary that can allow like innovation and good things like that. I really learned from just passively experiencing this indoctrination, this whole structural approach to, you know, telling you how to do every single part of your life. Now, I mean to the extreme, there's some limitations with that, but a lot of the rest of the world doesn't have that at all, and it really the systems suffer as a result.

P N 23:12
Yeah, what about your experience with PTSD?

Glenda 23:17
So, you know, I was in this near fatal car accident, um, right before my senior year, and I did not okay. So, I did experience what we would call acute stress disorder, which is within the first two weeks after the event. I had nightmares. I would wake up in the middle of night, I would smell the gasoline from the helicopter that came to pick me up. Like now, as a clinician, I look back, I'm like, Oh, I probably had acute stress disorder, but at the time, I was just like, I thought I was having bad dreams. I just I didn't really, I was so optimistic and so focused on reclaiming what I could of my life that over time, those things just kind of they faded away. So, to date, I would say that I never met criteria for PTSD proper, because you have to have, like, a functional, you know, impairment. I do have the impacts of traumatic brain injury, which, back then it wasn't even like diagnosed, but because I had such a high cognitive reserve, again, hard to detect functionally. So, when I then went to medical school and saw veterans with like, full on PTSD, I was like, How is this possible? Like, how is this happening? And it was really seeing a lot of Vietnam veterans at the VA and seeing how they were engaging the healthcare system, which was in such stark contrast to my experiences as a cadet, and like this whole like resilience, like it was this huge contrast, and that's when I started to wonder about my own experience. Okay, maybe there was something interesting to be learned from this resilience process that could help people that are dealing with these PTSD symptoms. So, I got involved. Then resilience research, PTSD research, got trained in trauma focused treatments for PTSD, and kind of spent a lot of my career navigating that whole trauma space. And it was just that curiosity, but in like, real time, I would still classify myself as having a very resilient outcome. I think because I was, like, really stubborn, like people were very pessimistic, I was like, Oh, you just don't know me. That's okay, you know, I just was very optimistic, and I still am pretty optimistic.

P N 25:36
Yeah, those are tricky thing. Yeah, have you found having experience with traumatic brain injury, TBI, and working with vets that sometimes there's both, there's a TVI and then there's PTSD, maybe a PTSD because of whatever caused the TVI. But you know, just being in explosion areas, even in testing, not even like in actual field combat, but in training exercises. There's a lot more research coming up to where that's having an effect on mental health, right? Because mental illness and mental wellness are two different things. Mental health, our physical health, I go to the gym for my physical health. It's not because I'm sick currently, right? So, but on mental health, causing, you know, depression, lack of sleep, which raises cortisol, all the things. What are some of those signs that you can share from your own experience, or some of the things you went through that someone who may not even be aware that some of the experiences they had, maybe that's what's going on with it.

Glenda 26:35
Yeah, I mean, like, it's really a recent revelation for me, personally, I mean, I've treated severe traumatic brain injury, so again, my view is skewed by the very severe cases for which you there's clearly something wrong with your cognitive functioning. For me, it wasn't really until I stopped drinking alcohol, interestingly enough, that I think I had all these like explanatory stories around. I think maybe I was unconsciously, like, saying, Oh, well, you know, I had drink last night. I have a headache today. Or, you know, like, just, I didn't really question how my brain was functioning. But then when I stopped drinking alcohol altogether, I was like, Wait a minute. Like, this is still happening. Like, after 3pm in the day I can't think the same, or my irritability that I might historically take a little mic cap so I'm not feeling so agitated. That's a sign that my cognitive load has been exceeded, and I should just stop doing hard things. You know that that was an option. It was really it was. So, it was two parts. One was eliminating alcohol so that I had that clarity of data. The second part was getting over the workaholic ness and giving myself permission to rest and take breaks and not overvaluing work effort. So I think if those two things hadn't been true, I don't think I would have come to being aware that how my brain was actually working, you know, you have a high stress job, you think, you know, I'm just stressed out because I have a deadline to meet or, you know, so these are the stories I told myself for decades. But then I got rid of that particular type of job where you're working 24/7 and then I got rid of alcohol as a part of my life, and I was still left with this brain that functioned at a very peak level at the top of the morning. And like, now it's kind of late in the day, and I was like, thinking to myself, I really couldn't use an hour-long nap. We're having this conversation, but I think it'll be like, easy enough that I could still show up. But if I had to do like, write a paper or any type of math right now, it would not it would take me probably four times longer than it needed to. But again, I think it's severity, and I think there's probably a lot of people that even might be listening that have had those exposures, who still have alcohol as a part of their life, or still have other types of stressors that they're explaining away their symptoms because they have a high stress job or something like that, and, and I think that's the opportunity is to be curious about, hmm, well, how do I feel if I'm on vacation, if I choose to have a vacation where I'm not having alcohol be a part of that? Can I pay attention to how my brain is working? You might find something interesting.

P N 29:21
I'm sober, and one of the biggest things in the early recovery was realizing that alcohol wasn't my problem. I was my problem. I was using alcohol as the solution to the problem. And so, what I you know, it's like, I have this thing, so using alcohol that solves the problem. Eventually I stopped being able to choose right? Once you know the definition of alcoholism is not drinking. It's not that you drink every day or that you drink a certain quantity or certain type of alcohol is I feel a physical craving for more alcohol. When I ingest alcohol, I mentally obsess over it when I don't have it, and when I take a drink, I can't say for certain how many I'm going to have. Whatever. It's similar to that of an allergy. If you're looking to peanuts, you don't get to choose whether or not you break out in the shot. I break out into handcuffs.

Glenda 30:13
Yea but I think I really want people to think about not getting to that edge before they are curious about their own use of alcohol. I really, I do hope that that's one thing that comes from our conversation, is that people are more curious about what would happen if I did a dry January. What could I learn about myself? And you might choose to make different choices. You might say, Hey, that was cool, and I'm glad I proved to myself I could do whatever I won't do and go back to using that's fine, too, but I just hope that people can maybe leave some space for curiosity, for what they might learn about themselves if they took that out of their repertoire of situational you know, it's really coping in some way or the other. Had a conversation my son, who's in sobriety, and he was like asking me, like, how do I feel because we were on vacation skiing, and he was like, you know, how do you feel like not drinking alcohol? I'm like, honestly, I can't think of a good reason to drink. Like, no good like, not one good reason. All the things that I would have said before, I want to relax. I want to have fun. I have great ways of relaxing. I am having so much fun. I feel so engaged. I just can't think of a good reason. It's not because I had my life did ball of art. I still enjoy the whole experience of, you know, drinking alcohol. It wasn't like, it wasn't like, I didn't like it. I still would probably enjoy it today, but it's just not good about racism for me, and it's just That's my choice. I'm fine with other people making other choices, but it's like being your own study, like an n of one study, and when I did the study on myself, that's where I landed. And I just, I think it's something that's probably a helpful thing for others to think about doing a study of themselves.

P N 32:02
Yea try some control drinking or, yeah, set it aside. It'll be hard to do it without making a reservation that, like, as soon as I make it these 30 days, I'm gonna, like, sell it exactly,

P N 32:12
it, you know, it might, it'll be educational. It might help. I mean if you're already suffering, right? That I didn't really have much of a choice, and I'm if you would have given me this option, then I would have told you to go after yourself. I would not have, or I would have said, well, that's fine for you, because you don't understand what it's like for me. Yeah, you don't have to live my life if you had to live your life, be it me, every day you drink like I do too. Or this is, you know, I'm not hurting anyone. This is just, it's only affects me and I'm just, this is the one thing of happiness that I did, because for that small moment that it works, I changed the way I feel. Yeah, for that small mom, I drank exceptionally because I wanted to change the way I felt. Because I didn't like my natural state of being, my skin didn't fit, I didn't like who I was, I was Nand. I was inwardly hateful. Couldn't say a kind word to myself. Took down all the mirrors from my apartment, you know. But when I met you, as long as I had a few showers and you weren't standing close enough to me to smell it, I would perform for you. I would do my day. I you know, you would I would smile. You wouldn't know. And I would think I'm doing that. That's me being nice, right? I'm being kind and I think, and it also it makes it tougher. I think this is going. Where I'm going with this is that I think for the service community, people that are in either military service, first responders, people that are constantly in a position of service to the general public or to other people, it's harder for us to get help for ourselves because we're so used to putting others ahead of us.

Glenda 33:45
Well, not only that, but most of us have also constructed a life where we're the most important, strong being in our whole system of life, right? You know you're the most important person at your job, you're the most important person in your family. And it's not just the family that you made or created. Could be your extended family. You're the friend that everyone relies on to be strong, you know. And I think I didn't want to walk around with a cape, but somehow, I had constructed a life where everything depended on me, to never take a break, to always be on, always be available. And it was a whole process of deconstructing that and then retraining my whole environment, like mommy's taking the time out right now, like even my little three-year-old, like he knows in the morning I do a certain thing, he has needs, and he knows he has to wait, because this is what Mommy does. She's working out right now. She's sitting over there praying. That's what she does. I can't touch anything on our prayer. David, on our prayer table, you know? And it was a lot of effort for me to reposition some people in my life, right, like you have to. There are some hard decisions to be made. I think there's a lot of us that over function and that have an overdeveloped sense of personal responsibility that then. If you just wake up one day, and this is your life, and even though you know you're drowning, you're like, like, what can I let go of? If I let go of this, my son might die by suicide. If I let go of that, my parents might be homeless on the street like this is, these are examples from my life. If I let go of that, my brother might end up overdosing. You know, if I let go of that, all the people that are depending on me to help improve mental health for their whole future, like, who's gonna help them with that? And so, you can sort of make yourself a superhero, and then it's a little bit arrogant, though, right? Like, it doesn't sound a little bit kind of arrogant. Now, I'm just like, You know what I you know, I'm not God, you know, I vacated that position of Master of the Universe. I'm just a human being. I have needs. I need to sleep. I need to take vacation. I need quiet time. I need to de stimulate myself at the end of the day. I need to have pauses throughout the day. I need to take, you know, weekend, days off because I'm a human being. I'm not a machine.

P N 35:59
Yeah, we got to put our mask on first before we can help anyone else on the plane when it's going down. Yeah, right, if we own, because if we, if we continue on the path, that train will eventually crash, and then none of those people that we think that we are supposed to be responsible for will have us around. Yeah. And, you know, for me, I got to a point where I thought that that was almost dead or not almost, I thought it was and, but, you know, turning into the belief into a higher power, right? Like part of recovery, and that's been the biggest part of change, is that I built a unique relationship with something outside of myself that actually ended up solving my problem. My problem wasn't depression, it wasn't self-hatred, it wasn't alcoholism. The problem was me. It was a god sized hole that existed within me, and I needed a spiritual solution to my physical problem.

P N 36:51
And I got a lot of help getting there, right? It took a group of people for me. You know, I used 12 step recovery, a group of people, a sponsor, plenty of therapists. You know, Montgomery County Sheriff's Department, a lot of people were involved in helping me change.

Glenda 37:09
Consequences, right? That’ll lay out some boundaries for you ha-ha. Yeah, it may not be enough to get me stop but it was kind of like, yeah, I need to think about this.

P N 37:19
I don't get to share this with a whole lot of people. Like, I mean, like, they don't know when you talk about doing stuff. Like, not everybody's sleeping in the park. But anyway, so if people you know, if they want to talk to you, and what are the family members? Yeah, so what are some of the things? Because I'm assuming, like a lot of people that come to you, they make they're probably suffering with something themselves, but a lot of times, they often show up and they share about a family member. Yeah, right. I help a lot of people that say, you know, so and so is drinking too much. I think they're acting a certain way, or so and so seems to feel like, seems to act like they have some, some depression going on. Sounds a lot similar what you talk about. And then in a conversation with them, I realized it really, yeah, hey, I'm just asking for a friend.

Glenda 38:03
Yes, actually yeah. I mean, you know, you mentioned before the fact that we're here at the NAMI national headquarters, and I'm on the national board. I actually joined the board. You have to be elected to it more so in my professional capacity, I think that's why people It invited me to Well, I was nominated by my state Nami office, and I in 2020 I was I got Nami psychiatrist of the year. I was pretty proud of that award. I got a lot of accolades. That's what I'm proud of, because Nami really stands for advocating for people that have mental health conditions, as well as their loved ones and their family. Was started by mothers who were passionate about advocating for their children. And so, during the time of my first three years of service, then I became a mother of a child with a severe mental illness. And like my whole commitment pivoted. I was always already committed to peers, people with lived experience, to educating, you know, general public around mental health issues, but then I got that flavor of, how do you walk along somebody who's in various states of recovery and various states of insight into their illness? And when I was vocal about my experiences, that's when, you know, people were flooding me with like me too, and this is going on, and what do I do? And at the same time that you're trying to get help for your loved one, you're also like, okay, and I'm like, Well, how are you coping with that? Because I know, I know what I'm having to do, and I'm a psychiatrist with all these national contacts and all these supports, and you're just handling this on your own. And so, you can then have a conversation around taking the cape off, you know, putting it in the drawer and getting some other people to come help you out, and not going through it on your own, as a parent or as a Whether it's a son daughter, you're helping a sibling. And I really have a passion for helping people to get connected with the resources that are out there. So, no matter where you are in the country, there's gonna be a Nami state office. This or an affiliate in your city, might even be that you can go and take a class, and you could find out about mental health conditions and understand your loved one from that perspective. Or you could take a support you can go to a support group and talk to other family members who are dealing with the same thing. That's what closes that gap between I'm the only one. You know that isolation comes from thinking you're the only one. I mean, you can go through in person, you can go through virtual there's a lot of online support groups too. Even through social media, 1000s of families are going through these issues. You know plenty of people who have high power. You're not the only person that's a CEO that has a drinking problem, right? Like, you're not the only person that's got high powered job dealing with depression, you know? And I think that that story that people tell themselves is what keeps them isolated and away from help. The solution is if, if people are vocal about their experiences and my willingness to tell my story. Yes, I'm a nationally known psychiatrist who could do nothing to prevent my child from having a serious attempt on his life in my in my house, under my roof, right? So, if it can happen to me, you don't have to hide in shame. If that happened to you think, Oh, I'm such a terrible mom. I'm a terrible mom. I'm a great mom, and it happened to meet you. So, I think it's the shame and the isolation that also drives people into the darkness. And you know, for those families who are, you know, visiting grave sites, and a lot of the people that are active in Nami, it's because they don't have a loved one anymore, and they're trying to redirect that grief and that pain into something productive. And, you know, I tell people and see, how are you doing? Like today is a good day. Like today, right? Today is a good day. Had a conversation my son earlier today, helping him support him through his feelings about school. We had a conversation. We were connected. I'm grateful for this day. I don't forecast into the future. I don't know what tomorrow will be, but for every today, that's a good day. I just ground and root in that gratitude, and I just try to make it through each day, like one day at a time, to be my best self, to give myself what I need, and to try to, you know, engage with other people in a healthy way to help them to it. It gives you meaning when you're when I'm like, going through suffering, then I'm able to give you advice, and it helps you. It makes that pain not feel worthless. Yeah, you know, yeah.

P N 42:34
The fellowship of people that you can find that have shared experiences, you know, the opposite to depression,

P N 42:46
the opposite to, you know, alcoholism, is human connection. Yeah, you know, it's not. It may seem like sobriety, or may seem like happiness or joy or these other words, but it's human connection that that feeling of fulfillment that comes when you share an experience with someone and it resonates with them, and then they share experiences with you, and you realize that, like, you're actually having that human connection that sometimes doesn't exist in any other part of your life, except for that, that one group that you belong in. What can you talk a little bit about, was there any sense, because I think sometimes with the family members, there could be a sense of, like, shame or guilt that they didn't recognize something, or that they didn't know that they should have done better, which, well, I mean, I don't know. Did you experience any of that? Yeah, yeah.

Glenda 43:32
I mean, like, of course, like, I'm literally like, here I am out there helping 1000s of people, you know, deal with these issues, and in my own life, I didn't know. And the thing that liberated me from being stuck in shame was like, of course, you didn't know because your son was hiding it from you. Like, that's kind of the whole point. Just like being able to look at my own experience to say, yeah, people who are friends are like, I never knew you were going through all that. Of course, you didn't, because I didn't answer the phone. You go, you know. So, if you want to hide, you're going to hide so you can't beat yourself up over what you could have, should have done. The only opportunities you have is the ones that people give you. Now, if someone makes a disclosure to you and you do nothing, that's a different situation, but most of the time you know, you don't know people are putting so much effort into keeping you at a distance or busying themselves. And this is, you know, when you were talking earlier, I really thought about our class and how we're trying to leverage the unique experience of the hard thing we went together. We didn't all experience it the same way. There's a lot of different some people it wasn't really that hard for them. They just like rocked it. Some people came away with lifelong relationships that they feel connected with. Other people have negative experiences, you know, had traumas that happen during their time. But regardless, we all went through this very unique experience together that I think there's an opportunity to use that as a way to connect us and because a great majority of us care deeply about each other, you know, it's like you can find your safe place here, even if I didn't know you from a can of paint while we were there, if you remember 99 and you've got a mental health issue and you don't know who to call, my number hasn't changed in like 20 years, like you can call me on the phone. I'm not going to take you on as a special case, but I'm going to help you get help. I'm going to walk with you and hold your hand till you get to the next place. And I'm not the only one that feels that feels that way. There's a lot of people. You don't have to be a psychiatrist to do that. There's a lot of people in our class that are standing at the ready. The problem is, though, like, we have all these opportunities to connect, and we're like, oh, here's my number. If you need to call me, you still got to get over that first barrier, though, right? So, to me, I feel like we I'm trying to do more to like, how can we connect with we live in the same city? How can I breathe your oxygen as I say? How can I, like, look into your eyes? Because it's easy to hide on the phone. It's easy to hide on a zoom. We laugh and joke and oh yeah, we're gonna bring our little beer to the chat or chat. But like, if we're sitting in a space like this, and we're having a conversation more than 10 minutes, probably I'm gonna notice, like, Okay, you're not something's off, and maybe something will happen that may create an opportunity for you to let me in a little bit to know that you need some help. So, I think that's like the next level of our efforts to really be there for each other. We've already said we're I'm there for you, like we have a whole Excel document and all that. But the real challenge is, how do we take that the next step, to really make that personal connection investment? Because I do believe that what you said is true, that people are longing to be seen, to be heard, to be valued to know that they matter, not just because of what they can do for you, not just because of their resource, but for the relationship. It takes time.

PN 47:11
You know, yeah, one last question before I let you go. If someone does disclose to you, what do you do?

Glenda 47:19
Listen. And that's it. I mean, that's like 99% of the right thing to do is just listen. You know, listen, because people, you know, solvers, you know, we want to fix things, and it's so tempting to try to, like, even just say, Oh, I've been through that whole like, just create space to listen, even just ask a clarifying question. Like, okay, so you said, blah, blah, blah. Tell me some more about that. I mean, that sounds so cliche, like something a therapist would say. But in this world, people are not seen and heard, you know, and just literally taking the time to listen to what they're saying and say, Wow, that sounds horrible, like match the energy of what that person's bringing to you. And then listen some more. And then listen some more. And maybe after you've done that a couple of rounds, you know, how can I support you? What will be helpful?

P N 48:27
Yeah, it’s not always helpful to jump right into, okay, let me fix this for you, or let me take you somewhere where you can, you know, let me, you know, it's not a, it's not a request for what's that a request for you to do anything, really? Yeah, other than, hey, I got something I want to say, and I've been sitting on it for 30 years,

Glenda 48:45
yeah. The other thing I want to say too is sometimes people need practical assistance, and you want to help them all emotionally, when it's like, but, but I need a car to take my kids to school, right? Like, I think that's the other piece too, which we're now trying to evolve to that to say, okay, yeah, you're stressed out, and here's the practical thing that you need. And our class has stepped up to find a way to provide that practical assistance. And I was talking to someone just about the women in our class, and how we all kind of get a little particular about certain things. And, you know, it's very stereotypical, but I've had this experience recently, like, around the kitchen, and it's like, yeah, I got a certain way of doing everything, and when you come into my kitchen, I'm gonna need you to do it the way that I say. Do it if you want to be helpful. If you don't want to be helpful, just leave me alone. I'll do it my way. So, I think that part that's a very trauma informed philosophy is like, help me in the way that I'm asking to be helped. First, you know, and then now I know I can trust you, and I'm experiencing some relief, and then it might be an option for me to say, like, Okay, well, have you considered this? You know, a lot of times we jump into we think we know everything. We jump to solution.

P N 49:58
Yeah, well, Glenda, thanks so much for making some time to chat with us, and I don't know, look forward to doing this again soon.

Glenda 50:06
Yeah, it was really good. You got the nice pause at the end.

P N 50:16
Let's see. Do.